Lavish Lashes Specoo

Deletion Debate

Unnecessary Article

This article is basically just a stub and would be better suited broken up into larger violence categories, like "domestic violence" and such. Plus, what's the point in having an article just about violence against women?

If there's no response in a week, I'll mark this article for deletion. Matt620 21:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

As stated earlier, it's not often that clear-cut. They aren't targeted for being women; they are targeted for being cruel women, or abusive women, or a woman who refuses advances. Being a woman is actually only empirical data to the crime itself, but decades of feminism and the assertion of females being targeted have often blinded people to this. Matt620 17:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I find it rather funny that you assert it is wrong to assert the females deserve it (this is actually false; my assertion was that the motives for the violence are NOT because the victim's gender was female, but for a reason inspecific to it), and yet, you reverse this on the men by stating the victims said they raped him. Whether or not that is true, these women committed heinous acts that, under the reasoning you gave for violence against women, would classify as violence against men.

As for feminism, I am speaking about the state of constant victimhood without asserting responsibility for female violence. Erin Prizzey did studies on this: I'll refer you to her research. Matt620 00:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for the constant posts, but wouldn't it be better to convert this to gender violence? Ethnic violence does a significantly better job as an article because it encompasses all violence targeted by ethnicity, whereas this one ignores one sect. Your assertions about men and domestic violence are false due to the very nature of battered wife syndrome. In a more encompassing article, an addressing of the myths and facts surrounding engendered violence can be addressed in a way that would cut down on the POV and falsehoods of the current article. Matt620 17:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Your assertion relies upon reasoning that you grant to females and not to males, and thus, is guilty of biased POV and illogic. I'll grant that practices like foot binding are a violence against women, because it was SOLELY started at females for being female. Rape, domestic violence, and all of that are not. They are not targeted against women for being women, anymore then cases like the Letorneau case targeted the boy for being male.

The legal defense disproves your assertion because it is WOMEN killing their HUSBANDS, not the other way around. This defense is invoked nearly unilaterally by women (hence the name) and it is targeted solely against men. By your logic, that would make it a violence propogated against men by women because of their gender. I don't necessarily agree with this assertion; I'm just pointing out that by the standards you impose for violence against a gender, this would qualify.

I'm not sure what you mean by "equal footing." Are you saying violence done against women is more wrong, or that it is justifyable? That is the exact problem that courts have these days: that women are somehow saintly and guardians of all that is good and only do wrong when provoked. The myth you seem to be promoting is denying that men are targeted by women for violence, which is false.

I pushed for this article to be rewritten because all of the violence against women that was sexist-motivated against women were covered in different articles. This became little more then a fact-bank, an unnecessary stub that espoused POV at the expense of violence against men.

Perhaps creating a new section, rather then breaking things up into one group, would make things easier to find.

Violence against women

This article is reptitive and provides nothing new to Wikipedia. All instances listed as violence against women are covered in different articles, such as sati, or mention violence that is not specific to women, such as rape. A minor aside, but the lack of a corresponding article explaining violence against men begs the question of female chauvinism with an attempt to explain violence against women as more heinous then other acts of violence.

The one problem with your assessment is that, due to the inability to get accurate prison rape statistics and the relative lack of concern regarding false rape charges (due to rape being prosecuted without evidence), the assertion that rape targets women primarily is questionable.

Just read how rape cases are prosecuted. Often, there is no physical evidence like DNA to link them, and it becomes a swearing contest of "he said, she said." Look at the Duke rape case for a timely example. The 1996 FBI Uniform Crime Report shows that at least 8% of rape cases are unfounded, and Dr. Kanin of Purdue did a small study that proved that 40% of rape cases done in a specific area were actually false. Statistics are unreliable, but we see evidence of this in the media. Matt620 17:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, the defense can't claim there is no physical evidence unless there isn't any. No lawyer would perjure himself that obviously. Matt620 00:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

That belongs under the "rape" section, not a violence against women section. Extrapolate your statistic further; try to find the number of men who are raped and do not report it. You'll find it lower. Also, you seem to be ignoring a key component: when the victim claims it's rape but the "perp" claims it's consensual. Essentially, she says yes, then says no later. Matt620 00:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

What about violence against men? Dudtz 7/20/06 7:27 PM EST

Flewellyn, there is a problem with that assertion. Studies among violent college-students show that the women typically hit men, mostly their partners, because they believe, among other reasons, that men will not hit them back. There are also cases such as battered wife syndrome and the results that are propogated primarily against men. There is violence committed against men for being men. Recall the Bobbit case, or Aileen Wuornos. Matt620 17:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I provided examples in popular culture because one does not necessarily need to be an expert in the subject. In regards to your discussion of rape, are you making the implication that, because the women claimed they were raped, that these men deserved their fates? If so, you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing me of: the implication that the men deserved a serious implication.

A good starting point of research would be to look at the domestic violence section in Wiki. There's more around, you just need to get the broader ones that don't encompass solely "women victims of male abusers", the criticism that is often given because of the people conducting the study.

New counterpoints

I'm going to place everything here, so it's easier to read.

I do not "apparently assume she is lying." I assume nothing. As a judge, I would throw a "he said, she said" case out for lack of evidence. However, this doesn't happen that often.

As for your DOJ statistics, the cases were noteworthy not only because they were committed by women, but because of the severity of their actions. There is also one problem with DOJ statistics, and that measures only actual offenses. One key criticism of gender justice is that often women are not prosecuted, and men are arrested when they are not perpetrators because they act in self-defense. You can read any of the stories on sites for battered men.

Also, VAWA statistics have your numbers a little off. In aprox. 2.35 million cases, men were the victims 835,000 of the time. A little over a third. And this doesn't count the stigmatization that men don't tell about such things because they think no one will believe them.

As for your "personal motivation and pain" point, that was precisely what I said about men targeting women for rapes and DV. It was against an individual, and not a group. I said that nearly verbatim when you mentioned those things. So, why is it when a man targets a woman for DV, it's a violence against women (as a class), whereas when a woman does it, it's personally motivated?

No, my reason for men assaulting women was not justification. Never was it, and never will it be. It was the reason why they did it: pure and simple. It is not so basic as a silly discussion of gender as a class.

The "culture of victimhood" is often advocated by men's group (which include a fair number of women) in which women perpetually play themselves as victims of oppression, even when that is false, because it brings about the results they want to see. Often, this term is applied to people who work in women's shelters; telling women exactly what to say when it comes to court, whether or not it is true. Surprisingly enough, it's usually women who condemn these actions specifically, in some cases, even the women themselves, who abuse their husbands. Prizzey goes on to comment that 62% of the women she interviewed at a women's shelter were as violent or more violent then the men themselves.

As for your "silly" assertion, you have it completely wrong. I said you are granting females the right to be perpetually victimized as a class by stating violence against them is class violence, whereas it is not for males. That is the illogic, because the examples provided follow the same purposes.

As for battered woman defense, I still fai